Brazilian Foreign Minister Celso Amorim defends its nuclear agreement with Iran, rejects lessons in human rights and believes that the emerging markets are the future.

"The Press": Supposedly, there is a 16th century map in your office where you can see the south above and the north below...

Celso Amorim (laughs): It makes me very happy that my office is known worldwide.

Has the financial crisis speeded up a process that in the end will turn the world into your map?

Amorim: I think so. It is an unstoppable and a most desirable process and, not only from the perspective of countries such as Brazil, India or South Africa. It is good for the international community if more world views are represented in its major institutions.

Which world view does Brazil bring?

Amorim: Even the Austrian writer Stefan Zweig's noticed that one of the greatest heroes of Brazil is not a general who won some battles, but a diplomat who solved border issues peacefully. We still hold this stance.

You and your government have been trying for years to become a permanent member of the Security Council. Is there a realistic chance for UN reform?

Amorim: It's inevitable, but how and when it will happen, I do not know. Who would have thought three years ago that the G20 would become a more important forum than the G8? Four or five years ago, Brazil and other newly invited as guests. The world has changed. I have participated in WTO negotiations. In the Uruguay Round, everything was decided by the United States, Europe, Canada and Japan. The history of the Doha Round was written by other G4, namely the EU, the USA and also Brazil and India. Of course it is easier to change informal structures. Recently, Hubert Védrine (France's former Foreign Minister) said something which I have already thought: Maybe we need a new foundation of the UN.

The G20 was created in the financial crisis. Will this impromptu forum become a new world government?

Amorim: No world government. We cannot dictate the other 172 other countries in the UN what they should do. But the G20 is an important coordination forum. Of course, the G8 may continue to talk. But this will not affect the course of the world. Not me, but the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank said that global economic growth in the next few years depends on emerging economies. The most difficult institutions to change are the ones that deal with peace and security, since it is there that lays the core of the real power, and there is no one there that likes to accept that there are new players.

Must a state have nuclear weapons in order to play in the top division of power?

Amorim: We do not believe in it. In our Constitution, we have determined that Brazil uses nuclear energy for peaceful purposes only. But the fact that the Security Council is resistant to reforms and has the same five nuclear powers as permanent members, which are accepted in the nonproliferation treaty, gives the impression that nuclear weapons are an important prerequisite.

When asked about the increasingly dictatorial Venezuela, you say that you do not interfere in the internal affairs of others. Isn’t it a retrograde step?

Amorim: We do not want to give anyone lessons. This does not mean that we would not be interested in the fate of people in other countries. Non-interference is accompanied by non-indifference. In human rights, there are not only teachers and pupils. Recently, we have legalized most irregular migrants in the midst of the crisis. I wish Europe would do the same.

You received much criticism for your failed attempt to mediate the nuclear dispute with Iran. What has Brazil won with that?

Amorim: People who say this have a very narrow horizon. Why are we members of the Security Council now? To gain influence in security agendas. We have seen in Iraq how everything can go wrong. When an Iranian war breaks out, there will be higher oil prices and more terrorism. Peace has a price.

Before you and the Turkish leadership traveled to Tehran, you already knew that the U.S. and Europe would not accept your agreement with the Iranians.

Amorim: It could not be derived from the letter from President Obama that we had received three weeks before the signing of the Tehran Declaration. But also from phone calls...

Amorim: I had a conversation with Hillary Clinton and others in the weeks before our departure to Iran. And they said their expectations went beyond the Tehran Agreement. But I clearly said that it was not mentioned in the letter from Obama. And the answer at the other end of the line was long silence.

The Security Council has ignored the agreement and imposed sanctions against Iran.

Amorim: Regarding that, I can only have theories. We have not solved all problems. But Iran was ready to store 1,200 kilos of low enriched uranium in Turkey and in return receive enriched material for medical purposes. I can only quote the former head of the International Atomic Energy Agency Mohamed ElBaradei: "The Security Council did not accept a “yes” as an answer”.

Are you ready to further negotiate?

Amorim: If our help is needed, it will be fine. But that has to be cleary said to us.

President Lula’s mandate will be over next year. Will you continue to be the foreign minister?

Amorim: No, no. The world as a whole needs renewal.